Beth Moore Message Review (IF:Gathering Series pt. 3- Teaching cont.)

Season 2 Episode 8 Transcript

Introduction

Hello Ladies and welcome back to another episode of Thoroughly Equipped! So glad you have chosen to listen to this podcast. TE is part of the Christian Podcast Community, which I highly encourage you to check out at podcasts.strivingforeternity.org.  The community reached 100,000 downloads in the month of April, and is still growing. The content and teaching that comes out of this community is just great, I can’t recommend it enough.

Today we are continuing our look at the IF:Gathering’s 2020 conference. If you’re just tuning in, I suggest you go back to the beginning of the series, which is episode 3 of this season. Now that’s because I go into why I’m addressing this in such detail. In the earlier episodes I presented to you the purpose of the conference along with the popular speakers. In this portion of the series we are looking at the way these teachers handle Scripture. And the 2020 conference is laid out perfectly for us to do just that as Jennie Allen set up the conference to be centered on Romans chapter 8, dividing the chapter into sections to which the speakers were to quote-unquote “focus completely and entirely on the Person of Jesus”.  Even though chapter 8 is about the role and work of the Holy Spirit in the life of those who are the children of God, in all truthfulness, drawing out the Person and work of Jesus Christ and even proclaiming the Good News, is very easy to do. Christ and His work is proclaimed clearly in the first couple of verses of Romans 8. So That is what we want to determine: did these speakers handle the text rightly, and actually give us and teach us about Jesus? Or did they just give lip service to Jesus and instead choose to teach us what they want, their experiences, their life lessons, their opinions on the work of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, etc?

Last episode we examined two messages given on Romans 8 verses 1-8. One of the reasons I love doing this podcast is the opportunity to look at Scripture and really shine a light on how wonderful it really is. And even in critiquing books or messages, it is an opportunity to proclaim the beautiful good news of Christ and His work. And last week’s episode, looking at Romans 8:1-8 was a perfect opportunity to do just that. Jennie Allen was right in this regard, that Romans 8 is just so theologically rich. Really all of Romans is incredibly filling. In fact, Luther stated in his preface to his commentary on the epistle: “This letter is truly the most important piece in the New Testament.”(-Luther’s (1483 -1546) Preface to Romans).

 Unfortunately what was given in these messages, BECAUSE they did not draw out from the text its rich theology, ended up being jello instead of meat. And meat is so satiating and filling ( believe me, I did the carnivore diet for over a month. Never has any other diet kept me full for so long that I was eating only 2 meals a day, 12 hours apart). Real good, deep theology, keeps you full through life; through trials and tribulations. “Man does not live on bread alone,  but on every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.” (Deut. 8:3; Matt.4:4).

The message we will look at today was given by Beth Moore who was to teach about Rom.8:9-11. 

So let’s dive in shall we?

Before we get into Mrs. Moore’s message let’s dive into the text that she’s supposed to teach about.

 Moore’s text is Romans 8:8-11, but like always let’s look at it in context.

Paul, throughout the first 7 chapters, basically presented the truth that ALL men are under condemnation and are born children of wrath due to their sinful nature. That men are born slaves to sin. Yet those who have been united with Christ, are no longer slaves to sin but to righteousness. And because we have been buried with Christ and raised with Him to newness of life, we are not under law but grace. Because we are under grace we present our bodies in obedience to God, slaves to righteousness, leading to sanctification. In Chapter 7 Paul describes the battle between the flesh and the spirit within the man who wishes to obey the law of God, which is spiritual and good, yet is living in a body of flesh.  It is here then that Paul proclaims the good news to those who wrestle with this inner battle. That there is no condemnation for those in Christ, because Christ did what we could not do, taking on human flesh, condemning sin in the flesh so that the righteous requirement of the law would be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. And this is where we’ll get into the text. We will read Romans 8:5-13.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. ⁶ For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. ⁷ For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. ⁸ Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Here’s Mrs. Moore’s passage)

⁹ You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ¹¹ If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

¹² So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. ¹³ For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 

So this text is all about the work of the Spirit of Christ in the life of a believer. Paul has been constantly contrasting the flesh with the Spirit. And he makes it very clear in verse 8 that the flesh cannot please God. Why? 1) those who are in the flesh do not have faith as Paul describes how people suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom.1:18-25). They don’t hold to the truth and live in it, but in rebellion actually suppress it. And without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb.11:6). 2) Those who do not have faith in Christ and His work, do not have the Spirit of Christ and therefore do not belong to Christ.

But those who have faith in Christ, were buried and raised with Christ and are indwelt with the Spirit, who now are empowered to put to death the deeds of the flesh and live. That same power that raised Jesus from the dead is given to us to raise us to walk in righteousness, to desire to obey the law, and in that desire obey the best we can. That is what this text is saying, that is the wonderful work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Now…is this what Beth Moore will talk about?

Now let’s get into her message:

 Beth Moore starts out praising the IF:Gathering as a work of God because of Jennie’s lack of knowledge in what she was getting into and its radical explosion over the years. But can we know that something is a work of God because of the weakness of someone’s ability or the growth in attendance and involvement? Now I hope to address this type of thinking as it’s often pointed out in IF throughout the years. Christine Caine even describes it as revival in the 2021 Conference. So, Lord willing, I want to think about what are the evidences of a work of the Spirit of God? What fruit should we look at to test the spirits (1 John 4:1)?

She then begins to talk about her love for the word of God, how it saved her soul and mind. She gives a testimony of a bible teacher of her who preached the word of God with such passion that she decided that she wanted that same passion; to love the word of God more than she loved her next meal. And like her, she relays that there may be ladies listening that may see that passion and hunger in someone and cry out for that type of passion. Now let’s listen in because this is her set up for talking about the work of the Spirit. (Play clip 1)

There are several things here that I could agree with, yes, let us have that passion to love God’s word, his Son, and our neighbor. And yes when we have that desire, God will answer our prayers, because in loving God we will ask in agreement to his will. In fact, Rom 8 in a way touches on this. Paul, indirectly talks about this, that the Spirit not only gives us the desire to see God’s will accomplished but the power to accomplish it. In this portion of Scripture the will of God is obedience to the law, and more specifically his will for us is to believe in Jesus Christ who fulfilled that law. But is this where Beth Moore will go?

She then lays out the format of the Conference, noting how Jennie planned it that each speaker should address a portion of Romans 8 to be expounded upon and cohesively come together in the end. For her she was portioned out Rom.8:9-11 but there are two verses that she says she is going to focus on.

Now, let’s stop for a bit here. We have already read the text in context. And if you listened to the last episode I want to remind you of a couple of things at this point. 1) That it was acknowledged in the introduction that there are likely unbelievers listening to these sessions 2) That Jada had opportunity to present the Gospel (the life and death of Jesus Christ presented to us as a gift to be received by faith for the forgiveness of our sins and salvation from the wrath to come). Romans 8 clearly lays this out for us in the opening passages. ANd yet it was not given. The Gospel was watered down to “God pursuing us”. 

So at this point the unbeliever has been told that God took care of their greatest need (not really expounding on that) by God pursuing them. And now they are told to dive into this portion of Romans without anyone drawing out what it means to walk in the flesh. We got Jennie’s take on setting the mind on the flesh versus setting the mind on the spirit. By which she interprets “setting the mind on the flesh” as focusing on worldly pursuits such as success, money, material items, etc. While to set the mind on the Spirit is interpreted as thinking positively and pursuing peace, kindness, joy, love, confidence, etc. No talk of how one who walks in the flesh is a slave to sin, while the one setting their mind on the Spirit is to set the mind on Christ, and in love for him obey the law, putting to death the deeds of the flesh. It is this dichotomy that Paul presents to the reader so that they may ascertain whether they truly have the Spirit of Christ. And that is where these verses are going to go. But for one who hasn’t been presented with this dichotomy, nor the Gospel, they may come to the text thinking they have been given the Spirit because they do not pursue success or material things, and work their best at defeating negative thoughts.

So now, Beth goes to the passage. And she is going to present to us her goal for the message she is about to give. (Play clip 2)

Ok, So she reads the text, repeats a couple of times: “Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, does not belong to Him” and proceeds to give her goal for the message, saying that she wishes for God to use the message to cause every single one of us to “ greatly value that which is in us”, so that “this treasure that was put within us would so sky rocket that we would respond in such a way to yield to what the HS wants to do”. 

Ok, let’s look at these two verses again:

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. ¹⁰ But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

This is the text she has been given to teach on and her goal is to encourage us to value the Spirit that lives with us in such a way that we yield to what He wants us to do? Ok, my question is: does the Holy Spirit through Paul, in writing this passage, have the same goal? Is that what He intended in writing these verses? Paul definitely wants to encourage believers. He wants to encourage them by directing them to observe their walk, and assure them that if they are in Christ they have His Spirit which empowers them to walk like Christ. So when Beth Moore says that she wants us to treasure the Holy Spirit so much so that we yield to what he wants of us- does she mean to live by faith in Christ Jesus and submitting to God’s Law? What is it that the Spirit wants us to do? Does she believe it is arrived at subjectively? Let’s find out.

She uses how women value the life of an unborn child in the womb as an example of valuing the Spirit within us. And makes the claim that if this passage was an instagram story it would be at this point that all sorts of emojis would be placed, for it is this passage that reveals who’s Spirit has been at work all along.(Play clip 3)

Yes, this is a wondrous and glorious thing. Paul is saying that the Holy Spirit is God’s Spirit and Christ’s Spirit, That same Spirit that worked with God in creation, worked in Christ perfect righteousness and raised Him from the dead. And Paul is reminding us that that same Spirit worked in us to raise us to life, to be led by him (verse 14), to walk in him and give life to our mortal bodies.

At this time she leaves the text and gives the listeners a bunch of verses that talk about God’s Spirit being Christ’s Spirit. Now what she’s doing here is called proof-texting. That’s where one takes a bunch of verses out of context to build a theology. Proof texting, done correctly is good, but if the verses are taken out of context to be given a different meaning than what they mean IN context, then that is a no-no. Beth Moore, at this point isn’t quite miss-handling the verses given. She is using them to explain how God’s Spirit was Christ’s Spirit from the beginning. That He resides in us giving us supernatural power: (Play clip 5)

Yes! I agree we have been given supernatural power. And Yes, we should be desiring to please God and be an example of Christ to others- BUT…what does that look like? How does one mirror Christ? Is that subjectively determined? Do I go by inner impressions just like Beth Moore does? Am I like Christ because I feel nudged to show kindness to some man by brushing his hair? Do I live like Christ by responding to inner impressions that convict me to do this or that? Or does Scripture lay out for us what righteousness looks like, what actually pleases God?  Will She clarify what it means to be an example of Jesus Christ, the perfect man who fulfilled the whole law, constantly doing the will of the Father? 

She clarifies why we are given this supernatural power. That without the Spirit we do not have the capacity to fulfill our callings. (Play clip 6)

That’s a problem. IF one has the Spirit of God HE will cause one to fulfill our purpose. Ephesians 2:10 says that we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. This word “handiwork” comes from the Greek “poiēma” and means “something crafted with skill and for a purpose by God”. God accomplishes his purpose through us. Now Beth Moore wants to make this purpose some grand thing, such as becoming a speaker, leader, mother, etc. some type of career or ministry position. But God’s will is broader than that. He desires that people love Him and love neighbor. And how we do that is revealed to us by his law. This is our purpose, these are our good works. They can be performed in our careers and ministries, they can be performed in service to our children and husband, stranger or friend, through trial and tribulation.

She continues on to present passages talking about The Spirit’s work and side tracks a bit asking us to imagine what type of reception Christ may have received upon his ascension to heaven. Turning and talking about the eternal plan of God to send his Son. and then she says this: (Play clip 7)

So having certain types of encounters should be our food? I mean Christ said that His food was to do God’s will. But again, what is God’s will? Jesus elaborates on this when He repeats Deut. 8:3 while under the temptation of the devil. He was hungry, physically hungry, and in His great hunger He said to Satan“‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.” (Matt.4:4). And Christ was sent to do God’s will, that will being EXACTLY what we see in Romans 8 By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, ⁴ in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. So when Christ says “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.” In John 4:34 he is talking about God’s word, to fulfill God’s word is to do God’s work. 

While we can experience instances in life that give praise and honor to God’s providential work in our lives, what Jesus is referring to here is the accomplishment of God’s word. We too, are well fed when we trust in that word (Christ and the Scriptures) and walk in Him (being led by the Spirit) to obey His word (Christ and the Scriptures).

She goes back to imagining how those in eternity observed Jesus’s life, death and resurrection. And then instructs us to turn to Ephesians Chapter 1 reading from verse 15-23. And then  goes into some context of this passage, referencing Ephesians Chapter 3 to talk about how we may get a sense that Paul is trying to convey some type of boundless space and Christ is filling all of it. Then talks about the Apostles watching Christ ascend; and we read it as if it’s something that was normal, yet the Apostles were probably astounded. (Play clip 8)

We are meant to be awed, and I appreciate the exaltation of Christ here.

At this point we are 40 min into her message that is almost an hour long. And really, she’s been all over the place, pulling out Scripture here and pulling out Scripture there. Scripture that references the Spirit of Christ, and even talks about Christ’s authority, and references verses to that as well. But here’s the thing…do you feel you understand Romans 8: verses 9-11? Has Mrs. Moore helped us understand what the author’s intent was in writing it?

She goes back into Acts as it describes the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and the adding of God’s people to the Church, recites lyrics to a song sung in their worship time. Now if you were watching this, all throughout her message she would stop and put candles on a cake, it is at this point that she lights them as she is reciting the lyrics to the song which describe how the Spirit quote-unqoute “lite the flame” in the birth of the church. 

Now it is after describing the work of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, that she begins to talk about the work and purpose of the Holy Spirit, to testify of Jesus Christ. We are to speak with “tongues of fire” by our lives, our love and our testimony by the power of the holy Spirit. (Play clip 9)

Ok, God wants to change us by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes, he most certainly does! He does a greater work than any physical, earthly miracle we could see, He raises the dead to life. People dead in their trespasses and sins and raises them to newness of life. People who used to suppress God’s word, suppress the truth, now love God’s word, and are empowered by the Holy Spirit to keep it, not perfectly, and with much struggle against our flesh, but the desire and motivation to love God by keeping His word is there (John 14:15). And that is Exactly what Romans 8 is ALL about. And Ephesians 3 dives into this as well. That through the power of the Gospel, proclaimed by Paul to the Gentiles,  the unsearchable riches of Christ might be made known. Because of this Gospel, Paul prays that the church be “strengthened with power through his Spirit in [their] inner being, ¹⁷ so that Christ may dwell in [their] hearts through faith—that [they], being rooted and grounded in love, ¹⁸ may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, ¹⁹ and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that [they] may be filled with all the fullness of God.²⁰ Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us,…”(Ephs. 3:16-20). This is the transformation work that the Holy Spirit does. He brings us to faith, to trust in Christ, know and comprehend the love of our Lord, and empower us to walk in his statutes.

  But listen to what she means by transformation. Is it the transformation as Paul describes or something else? (Play clip 10)

Ok, so the work of the Holy Spirit is to empower you for your calling. That your life looks supernatural. Ladies, when we hear something like that we most likely go: “yeah, that’s what I want”. Most of us imagine that that kind of life would be full of adventures, risks, and successes. But I tell you that this is 1) reviles the real work of the Holy Spirit, who, like I mentioned earlier, does a miraculous work in the salvation of an individual, bringing one out of darkness and into light (1Pet.2:9). This work is not visible,.. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3:8) it is weak, imperceptible, and not spectacular in our eyes; yet it is so very powerful. 2) this is so very burdensome on women. It makes one look at their life now, and doubt if they even have the Spirit. A typical woman working to support and love her family, serving in nursery at her local church, doing her best to submit to her husband is left to doubt the work of the Spirit in her life. To many women have fallen for this, thinking they were not serving God rightly in these things, dropping them to pursue a “higher” calling, one subjectively received. Instead of merely being grounded in God’s word, obeying His commands,being faithful to Him in service to those closest to us, family, friends, church home.  

 For my sanity at this point, I’m going to stop. There is still 15 min left in the message but most of it is her telling the listeners about a ministry she is head of and a story of one day dancing for Jesus with a member of the ministry.

So I’m going to conclude her message with this: She pulls out a bunch of Scripture that talks about receiving the Holy Spirit and basically claims that the HS will empower us to accomplish our calling, testify of Christ’s work in our lives, and make our lives supernatural. But Rom 8:9-11 is explaining that those who are in Christ have the Spirit which is in stark contrast to those who are in the flesh. Those in Christ do not have their minds set on the flesh but on the things of the Spirit (vs13) putting to death the deeds of the body and submitting to God’s law (vs 7). She spent most of the 50 min pulling out other verses in the Bible to talk about the Spirit of God as the Spirit of Christ, in hopes of encouraging the listeners to value what is inside them, claiming that that Spirit empowers them to live supernatural lives. Did we get all that from Romans 8:9-11 when we read it?

Beth Moore is a favorite within Evangelical circles. She was heralded in her introduction at IF:Gathering as a great bible teacher and spiritual mother to the speakers there. She is a great orator. She can tell a story and can quote Scripture like nobody else I’ve seen. But she’s all over the place, and for those of us who want to know what Scripture actually says, to study it and get in depth, the way she handles it causes distractions. You certainly get a lot of information, but are you actually getting fed?

What did you think? Do you think she addressed the text correctly? Let me know…feel free to email me at thoroughlyequipped316@toastiemel

So ladies, until next time, I pray that as you read Romans 8, you are valuing the work that God has done in you. That you praise Him for taking out your heart of stone, putting in a heart of flesh (Ezk.36:26) granting you the faith to believe in the Son of God. That you praise him for granting you the Holy Spirit to empower you to walk in His statues, to love His law, and obey his commands. If you are convicted, knowing that you have not kept God’s law, and are not walking in His ways, I pray that you read all of Romans and as you do, you are brought to love God for sending His son to fulfill the law for you and bear the cross for your sins so you might be reconciled to God, and that you are, by grace, given faith to trust in the work of Christ. WHen you do that you are given the Helper, the Spirit of Christ,  to walk in faith  and to accomplish the good works of the law for your neighbor that God prepared beforehand that you should walk in. Whether those be accomplished in service to our employers, our teachers, our parents, our husbands, our children, our friends, or a stranger.

I pray, ladies, you are in His word.

MelbaToast